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Blimpish

Rubbish. British Conservatives just saw that it was bad politics: there's no big anti coalition to be galvanised, so we'd have just damaged our reputation if pushed too far. Plus, the civil partnerships thing means it's less emotive and permanent - it remains to be seen whether going for the civil route makes it easier or tougher to get full marriage rights a little way down the track. It also remains to be seen how popular or stable the partnerships will prove to be.

Is Britain at ease with itself on this issue? Only through indifference.

Third Avenue

Hm. I agree that I was unutterably cheeky in deigning to speak on behalf of the Tory party. But I wasn't totally talking out of the top of my hat. Take this from the second reading of the Civil Partnership Bill by Tory MP Robert Key (12 Oct 2004). It's not at all unusual for the debate:

"I am a strong supporter of traditional marriage and I declare my interest. I have enjoyed 36 years of marriage and I look forward to many more .... By giving legal and practical recognition to same-sex relationships, the Bill may help to support them and encourage their stability. Surely it is good to minimise the breakdown of any relationships. I believe that the Bill will enhance the institution of marriage by increasing public approval for stable, committed, loving interdependent relationships in society. I fail to see that acknowledgement of one permanent, faithful, stable relationship can undermine the status of another legally acknowledged, permanent, faithful, stable relationship. How can my marriage be undermined by someone else's civil partnership, or the other way round? Surely the more committed, stable relationships there are, the better."

Surely classic conservative arguments for what is a classic conservative policy (no, I don't expect you to agree with me - but this is a Tory MP speaking).

But using your own argument - why do you think the Tory party thought it was 'bad politics' to oppose this Bill? Are the Tories so unprincipled that they would support a Labour bill that they knew was wrong? Or was it more the case that they saw it would be wrong to put themselves again a bill that, as Key says, promotes loving, stable relationships?

Will it lead to marriage? Who knows? But the fact that the British press, even the right-wing papers, are using the 'm' word suggests that we're half way there.

You say that it 'remains to be seen how popular or stable the partnerships will prove to be'. Well, of course it does. It could hardly be otherwise given that they don't yet exist.

Britain at ease, or Britain indifferent. The amount of press coverage hardly expresses indifference, but equally I agree that nobody apart from those directly affected are likely to be losing sleep over this. Which I think says a lot.

The Digester

I agree with 3A. It's fundamentally conservative policy. Look at all the couples being trotted out by the media -- the "acceptable" face of homosexuality.

dearieme

I suspect that Gay Marriage will largely turn out to be a dodge for avoiding Inheritance Tax, and we can all agree that that is a noble cause. But since the USA was set up on the noble principle of dodging taxes, it remains a mystery why Americans don't approve of it too.

Blimpish

"Are the Tories so unprincipled that they would support a Labour bill that they knew was wrong?"

Do you really have to ask this question? Of course we would. The Thatcher episode's lasting impact aside, being a Tory means you do the best you can, often compromising with bad policy so as to avoid it getting any worse. I think (as you know) gay marriage is dubious policy advanced on shaky grounds; civil partnerships less so, but I think the Party was entirely right to endorse the policy on strategic grounds. To make this convincing, we rationalise and sanctify that support (I'm not saying Key is lying above; but Tory politicians aren't typically known for their deep reflection - those that are are normally downright dangerous, cf. Enoch Powell or Keith Joseph).

Leaving aside the policy arguments as we've covered them before, the strategic rationale here is that endorsing civil partnerships would (1) help the party to establish modern, progressive, tolerant, open-minded, blah-de-blah-de-blah credibility with the public; (2) not concede too great a ground because it was limited to civil partnerships; (3) civil partnerships will neutralise the argument until it's more easily won, and (Pareto's law sty-lee) make the final step of all-out marriage too damned difficult to effect; and (4) provide a testing ground for gay couples to demonstrate if the potential benefits are as great as advocates like your good self suggest; with civil partnerships, we can fairly easily withdraw from the testing ground later on if it proves necessary.

Britain at ease and Britain indifferent conceals quite a gulf. The public-at-large, at least outside of London, will be fine with gay civil partnerships as long as it's kept out of sight and out of mind, and as long as (the Digester is entirely right here) gay couples look and act like straights. Homosexuality is accepted within middle class society, but only tolerated more generally - tolerated in a more friendly, bemused way than in days gone by, but still looked upon as "a bit odd."

Dearieme: if we'd told people on the Left ten years back that gay marriage was an inheritance tax dodge, they'd have become the doughtiest defenders of traditional marriage...

Third Avenue

Blimpish - I'm thoroughly won over by your picture of the Tory party and its attitude to principles! I'll definitely be spreading the news to family and friends never to trust a word that comes out of a Tory's mouth (not that they're actually lying, you understand)...

You seem to be saying that Conservatives lost the argument on civil partnerships, therefore had to make the best face of it. And they lost the argument in the eyes of the British public is also implicit in your position, hence they wouldn't need to to establish any 'credibility'. As for 'limiting' it to civil partnership - apart from in the name, civil partnership and marriage are pretty much identical. And if it looks like a duck, etc, etc

Your 'testing-ground' argument is intriguing. Do you mean to say you'd abolish civil partnerships if people got divorced too often? Or were not particularly happy? Or argued a bit much? Or just couldn't decide which IKEA couch to buy? I'm being flippant - but since any downright failure of the policy will not be evident for fifty or more years, it's pretty irrelevant for current politics. Whereas its success will be felt in families up and down the land beginning this Christmas.

Blimpish

Toryism is (Thatcher being an aberration) against ideology; principles are there to shape judgements, but the highest virtue in conservative politics is prudence. Newman defined Toryism as "loyalty to persons," i.e., the country as it is before any high systems of thought. Yes, there are precepts, presumptions, and prejudices with which we approach political argument, but our first priority is (or should be) to continue the conversation - know when you've lost the small argument so you can keep your arm in for the larger one.

That's only "lying" in the sense that a man might lie to his wife (or indeed civil partner) that he's happy to (say) go where she wants on holiday that year, even though his heart was set on going elsewhere. It's only our juvenile fixation on 'authenticity' that sees this as a bad thing, when it's surely part of living life as an adult - that we sometimes subordinate our preferences in the interests of sustaining and nurturing a wider friendship, marriage, or association.

'Credibility' referred not to the Tories having lost the argument on gay marriage; the argument never really happened. Instead, I was referring to the wider problem the party has, that it needs to build trust and empathy with the electorate. I'd bet that the party could, if it fought hard, have badly damaged the government on civil partnerships - but it would've been a pyrrhic victory, because we'd damage our reputation further, giving up whatever slim hope we have of returning to power in the next ten years.

Re the 'testing ground' and fifty years... Indeed, pretty irrelevant for current politics - but I was thinking about the long-term, and keeping the option open. Just because we mightn't be around to see that part of the defence of western civ, it doesn't mean we can't set the scene for it.

Third Avenue

On Thatcher - yes, to a point. She was an aberration, but such a huge, significant and traumatic one that I doubt the Tory party can just flip back to being what it was. And I rather imagine you see Heath, with his 'extreme' Europhilia, as an aberration too. In which case, one has to go back the best part of half a century to get a non-aberrant Tory government. And when an aberration lasts that long, it surely begins to cease being an aberration.

On civil partnerhips - now, are you pulling my leg here? Your line that the Tories could have, if they'd wanted to, damaged the government is classic Jane Austen 'If I'd ever learnt to play the piano, I would have been very good at it' ;-). And are you really claiming that the Tories, seeing this as a fight for 'the defence of western civ' as you put it yourself, merely sat aside and said gnomically: 'we have the arguments that could sink this, but, for our own sphinx-like reasons, we'll refrain from using them.' You yourself have argued that the British public is at best indifferent on this issue, so why should the Tories suffer from opposing this measure? Especially if the very soul of the nation is at stake? They haven't exactly been shy about opposing plenty of other, more popular Labour policies.

Blimpish

"The defence of western civ" was said with eyebrow well raised, just to be clear.

What I mean is that the political cost of successfully opposing (or at least injuring the government for legislating) civil partnerships was higher than it was worth as a policy issue. Most Tories (me included) didn't think this fight was worth the cost - especially as it is just civil partnerships, not full marriage.

Yes, the public are indifferent, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be roused either. It's just that the Party would've gone even further down the road of being an unelectable rump - not because the public mightn't have agreed with them on the issue (if it was well managed) but because it would've played right into the party's main negative, of looking nasty and mean-spirited.

As much as the soul of the nation might be at stake (and we just don't know), support for civil partnerships is a symptom, not the underlying rot. To act on the rot, we need to have a chance of office again, and opposing civil partnerships tooth-and-nail would've worked against that.

Re Thatcher - I wouldn't call Heath an aberration like Thatcher; he was just a bad leader, but more clearly within the Tory tradition (in a form I find objectionable, but still part of it). I agree that getting over the aberration is perhaps impossible; as with all historic moments, we absorb them rather than revert to the status quo ante. I don't think, personally, the Tory Party will return to being genuinely conservative until current party realignment completes, which might have to wait until the corrosion of the Labour Party becomes terminal.

Third Avenue

Okay. I think we've probably reached something like agreement (on the politics, if not the substance). Allow me to smile at the delicious irony of the fact that I'm the one lauding the Tories for their sincerity, while you're trying to impress on me their duplicitous insincerity.

My one comment would be that I think it very dangerous for the Tories to 'wait until the corrosion of the Labour Party becomes terminal'. Labour may not have been around as long as the Tories, but they've been around for more than a century and it is highly, highly unlikely that they are about to implode. The Conservatives need to look to themselves for their own rescue, and not passively wait for dreadful things to happen to others.

Blimpish

Smiling at the irony not only allowed, but positively encouraged.

My point on the corrosion thing wasn't to wait for the Labour party to die off (in its present form) before we bother fighting elections, but only that the Tory Party until that happens will remain a curious hybrid of conservative and libertarian factions.

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